Elimination Round

The host of THE LIST is Ned Clayton.

Pete Baumann's Elimination

Ned: I have to admit that I approve of Wade's choices to an extent. I think they give some needed depth to the list. I think we all admit that there is not only one acceptable style of music, and it would be good if our final list showed some acceptance and appreciation for the non-droney-post-rock world of music. Certainly the list so far is not completely monochrome, but I think there needs to be some protection against that happening. I believe the fact that Modest Mouse has managed to jump to the majors with a very good album that has only increased their popularity gives a better objective reason for their inclusion than perhaps could be made for any other album listed except maybe NYC Ghosts and Flowers and Kid A. I hate to sound too much like a democrat, but at the moment they really are the second most popular band represented here, and I think that means something. Furthermore, I personally like Modest Mouse, I think their new album is a good one, and unlike Pete, there are some selections still on the page that I have heard and enjoyed less than The Moon and Antarctica. So, this is my first veto.

By the way - I think all this "Oh, I can't eliminate this because I haven't heard it" stuff is just silly. I can't think of a better reason for eliminating something. If you've never even heard it, how can it truly be any good?!

Pete: Since, apparently, ignorance is considered more valid that not liking something, I guess I have no choice than to vote something off just because I've never heard it. Anyway I'm going to take off Susumu Yokoto, Sukura--out of ignorance.

Pete Baumann eliminates Susumu Yokoto Sukura.

Dave Christensen's Elimination

Ned: I totally agree with Dave. I liked this album, in fact I liked it more than some of the stuff that's still remaining. I think I liked it better than Modest Mouse. But I'm totally pissed off at Yo La Tengo for releasing their most boring album ever, so THEY ARE GONE!

Pete: The new Yo La Tengo is easily the best thing they ever released.

Dave: Sha! Perhaps you have never heard a little record I like to call Painful. Or even another one some other dude likes to call Electropura.

Daron: Maybe he has, and maybe he hasn't, but I have and I think it is the best one too. Not that I care if it's on The List; I wasn't sure what should be my #3, but it my favorite record of theirs.

Dave Christensen eliminates Yo La Tengo And Then Nothing Turned Itself Inside-Out.

Dick Baldwin's Elimination

I feel like a jerk. I don't like cutting people's choices.

Pete: Dick, you are a jerk for taking Flying Saucer Attack off! That album is the best!!!

Dick Baldwin eliminates Flying Saucer Attack Mirror.

Daron Gardner's Elimination

Ned: Well, I have to say "no" again. You can keep trying if you want, though. Maybe eventually I'll change my mind. Maybe you should tell me why it isn't good.

Daron: That was just a joke. I don't think it's a great album, but they just aren't my kind of thing in general. Since I have to make another choice--sorry Gil--I have no idea what in the hell Rowe, Nakamura, or Lehn are. Sorry! I assume from your description that it is 3 separate artists. Anyway, that is my choice I guess.

Daron eliminates Rowe, Nakamura, and Lehn's albums (tie).

Luke Ferdinand's Elimination

1. Lee's poetry and vocal delivery,
2. Kim's voice,
3. Sonic Youth lyrics in general,
4. Played out pseudo-beat NYC homages,
5. Boring, uninventive trendspotting like they've become so good at for the last 5 or so albums,
6. Bad cover art,
7. I know Daron likes this,
8. Daron's got dibs on eliminating Modest Mouse,
9. Kim Gordon is older than my mom, and
10. Their collaboration with Cypress Hill on the Judgement Night Soundtrack.

Dave: Bastard!

Ned: I'm sorry to see Sonic Youth go. I really like the band, and I like NYC Ghosts & Flowers more than a lot of the stuff that's left.

Sonic Youth's lyrics in general? Maybe you mean Lee's lyrics in general. Sonic Youth has written some of the best lyrics ever! "I Dreamed I Dream?" "Ghost Bitch?" "I Love Her All the Time?" "Expressway to yr Skull?" "Schizophrenia?" "Teenage Riot?" Okay, none of these are in the last ten years, it's true.

Sonic Youth trendspotting? Which of their albums sounded like it was trying to fit into a trend? The only ones I can really think of are Goo and Dirty, which were kind of "grungy" but they sort of invented that sound. They were just polished up (and not as good) versions of Daydream Nation.

Plus, I think Sonic Youth is a more "important" band than any other listed, and I think their albums have a better chance of still being sought after by the kids in 20-30 years than 90% of the other bands list. But, you're right; the album they'll be looking for won't be NYC Ghosts & Flowers. So I won't veto it.

Gil: Good call, Luke. I haven't heard NYC Ghosts & Flowers yet, but the last 5 (or so) of the Yoof's DGC albums hinge on trends. When lo-fi was king and Boredoms ruled the underground, we got the Pavement-by-way-of-Osaka Experimental Jet Set Trash & No Star. When it was all about the Kraut, rock that is, and Downtown free jazz, "Washing Machine" tripped the messy lock-groove fantastic. I'm surprised they haven't done a drum 'n bass album, trip-hop, and minimal techno side projects, a Tropicália tribute, or at least a French disco-house remix yet. The only Sonic Youth platter to buck the trend is Leaves, whose motivation eludes me. Parts sound like early Colin Newman; the rest just sounds like Sonic Youth. Maybe that's why it's their most satisfying album since Daydream Nation and Sister.

Ned: Maybe. I don't want to argue about this too much, especially since I have hardly heard Washing Machine and have never claimed to be a big fan of the band's output during the 90's. But I think characterizing them as desperate to jump on any current trend may be unfair, and even inaccurate. Sure, they haven't been oblivious to the world around them, but I think they've sort of always had this "hommage to pop culture" side that is as much a part of their thing as detuning and smashing shit. Experimental Jet Set definitely brushed into lo-fi territory, but it was sort of their territory to begin with. Just about every home taper from the late 80's through early 90's (myself included) had admitted to doing so because Sonic Youth taught them that trashy sounds could be beautiful too. And while that album did have some resonance with the Pavement and Boredoms crowd as you have said, when I first heard it it reminded me of a cross between their self titled EP and Evol more than anything else.

I think everything in Luke's list of gripes about NYC Ghosts & Flowers is essentially true, those things just don't bother me and maybe others quite as much as they do him. But I can't think of another band, especially another trendy band of the moment, that sounds anything like this album.

A Thousand Leaves was Sonic Youth's most satisfying album since Daydream Nation. But NYC Ghosts & Flowers is better. You should hear it.

I think the comments made so far, and a careful search of my own should have led me to decide on a veto for the exclusion of Sonic Youth. Luke, pick again. Sorry everybody. It's just true, I don't want to go back on the Modest Mouse thing, but how can I let Sonic Youth be eliminated when I like their album more? This will probably be my very very very last veto though, so otherwise, just go right on with the fun!

Dave: Hooray for Ned! I'm not going to make any arguments that their DGC albums have been any good, but I do think that since SYR 1 they have been on the upswing, and NYC Ghosts & Flowers is a solid record, more "pure Sonic Youth" and I really, really liked it. I have a secret theory that the SYR improv sessions + getting all their gear stolen (forcing them to start over on their Leaves follow up) has saved Sonic Youth. Plus, they last two times that I have seen Sonic Youth live have convinced me that they are one of the greatest bands ever, second, maybe, to the Rolling Stones.

Luke: In that case, I'll choose Do Make Say Think's Goodbye Enemy Airship the Landlord is Dead. Reason: "Perhaps, then, Goodbye Enemy Airship... is the great album Mogwai has never been able to make. " - Jim Steed

Jim: That album is better than any Mogwai album. It is true. I don't know why so many damn people like a bunch of loud Scottish boys with clothing contracts who wish they were Rex. Nothing they have released has been really great, and their few really good songs they've now recorded about 10 different versions of. How can you support a band that is more or less responsible for the widespread misuse of the remix album? I cannot. I don't want to say they are a bad band, but looking at each of their albums, I don't like any as much as Goodbye Enemy Airship, which is a similar sort of music. Goodbye Enemy Airship is a great album, but I am fine with it being removed.

Pete: First, I really like Do Make Say Think, however, I am for taking off because although I like it, it is not that wonderful, certainly not one of the best of 2000. I don't know what your problem with Mogwai is but, although they have done some stupid things (clothing co. sponsorships, remix albums, etc.), I think that CODY is one of the best albums ever released, and I like everything they've ever released. I don't know what you mean by Rex (not the band Rex do you?) 'cause they don't sound anything alike. I think Mogwai has a real talent for atmosphere, dynamics, and melody. Also, I realize this is irrelevant since they are not even on the list, but I did it anyway.

Jim: I am surprised anyone could think CODY is one of the best albums ever released. That is not even Mogwai's best album; it is probably their worst. Their EP+2 that also came out last year was a lot better (but still not as good as Goodbye Enemy Airship, in my opinion). Mogwai may have a decent talent for atmosphere and dynamics, but they are not a very good rock band. I think the reason you, Daron, and others like them so much is that they do all the sissy stuff like "atmosphere" well enough to make you interested, and then on top of that they are a decent rock band that likes to play stuff loud, so it makes you feel all tuff and everything because you like a loud rock band.

Dick: I like Mogwai (and particularly the EP + 2 and CODY) because they aren't rock or atmospheric. They stand somewhere between committing to neither side completely. I think that this keeps those who like a lot of rock from liking them... well, at least, the newer stuff. And the presence of some pseudorock keeps the atmospheric music fans at bay. So, Mogwai gets called "bad" and "not good" quite a bit.

Pete: The "loud" part is not a very big part of CODY, and I know that at least Daron agrees with me that it's their best. Ultimately it really is just my opinion, but what does Do Make Say Think do that's any better? I think Do Make Say Think are in comparison quite boring.

Jim: I think it is great that all you guys finally admit you "really like" music that is "quite boring." I feel so much better about my choices and elimination now.

John: Well, yeah. Have you ever heard any of the bands we're in?

Jim: Live, Mogwai did CODY very loud, which is mainly what I was referring to. The album is a bit more like Rex, but that is a main reason why it isn't that good. If you want to be a rock band and you are trying to be like Rex, then maybe you don't quite understand what you need to do to be like Rex. In comparison, I don't think Do Make Say Think wants to be like Rex. They might want to be more like Godspeed on this album, which is a valid complaint, but I think that is an improvement to their sound over their first album so I'm not complaining.

Luke Ferdinand eliminates Do Make Say Think Goodbye Enemy Airship the Landlord is Dead.

Jim Steed's Elimination

Ned: Here's how I feel. I think everything Jim said about Radiohead below is true of about 60% of what's still on the list. I mean the implication that lifting somebody else's "experimental" sound shouldn't wash for originality, and the statement about "co-opting the sounds of the underground." Sure, if your band doesn't sell millions, you've got a better claim on being part of the underground, but does that give you any better right to be an experimental music poseur? I'm not trying to impune bands that recycle. I think it's an unavoidable part of making music that's friendly to the ear. Maybe what really counts isn't originality, but how good the music is. What I'm wondering is whether you have to hold Radiohead to a higher standard just because they're popular.

On the other hand, I am a patriot, and I love the USA, and I think that from the 60's on England has specialized in taking the real stuff from America, making it sexy then selling it back to us. They've failed almost completely to innovate their own trends (with the exception of prog and maybe glam) and they need to be punished.

John: I would not be sad if Kid A didn't make it. While I like it secretly, I am too cool to admit that. I would lose all of my cred. I wouldn't be honored enough to read The Wire anymore. That's why I gave it 10/12 instead of the 11/12 I really wanted to give it. Plus, if the avant-scene finds out that I liked it, I would be kicked out of the club. I haven't spent 2 months formulating a response to the question "What do you think of the new Radiohead?" that admits that I like it but ultimately distances myself from it and makes it known that I am aware of all of it's influences. However, I would rather leave it on than have Jim knock it off if he's never actually listened to it. Jim, have you actually heard the Radiohead record?

Jim: I freely admit to not having heard the whole album. Then again, I don't want to hear the whole album. I have heard three songs, the most stirring reaction any of them got from me was switching radio stations halfway through.

On Ned's points, Radiohead shouldn't be held to higher standards for their music. Then again, they shouldn't be fetish-ized just for having an accent. Similarly, because they are on MTV and still have some creative control over their music, they don't deserve a pat on the back for hopping great styles (ones we are already into), especially when they get it all wrong and create something much less interesting than the original.

If we are to jump all over Sonic Youth for "boring, uninventive stylehopping," how can we let Radiohead get away with it? At least, on NYC Ghosts & Flowers, Sonic Youth is stylehopping the styles they originated 15 years ago. Should we hold Radiohead to lesser standards because they haven't made records like Sister and Daydream Nation, as Ned reasons not vetoing Sonic Youth's elimination?

Ned: I agree. I think there's no veto forthcoming on this one. I feel kind of dumb about that, because I think everybody's going to say if I vetoed Modest Mouse, I should veto Radiohead, since they're so much better. I guess I just like Modest Mouse more.

Daron: First, they aren't on MTV anymore. The "getting it all wrong" is not the opinion of the group as a whole, so that is probably part of what Ned is taking into consideration. I think it is a release that is great, and I know some of the other members of fakejazz agree. They have had their Sister and Daydream Nation records, you just don't like them. That is fine with me. I don't have a problem with you not liking them.

It is funny that I am fighting for the new Radiohead because Ned is considering vetoing its elimination. However, I like the new Sonic Youth more than the Radiohead album. I just got the feeling that it would have been vetoed anyway, so I didn't bother.

Pete: I totally agree, Kid A is way better than Modest Mouse (which is just the Pixies essentially anyway). Radiohead's "borrowing" is a lot less obvious and more innovative and original than that, I think it is certainly one of the best of the year.

Dave: Pixies with a retard singing is the correct comparison.

Gil: It's a different sort of trendspotting. with Sonic Youth, it's more a matter of having cool influences. We all know it--remember Thurston's props to Charalambides and Harry Pussy in Rolling Stone? But their sense of timing is impeccable--impeccably lousy. It defeats the band's cutting-edge intentions. Sonic Youth used to dictate the curve for all the other underground bands on either side of the Big Pond, but later Yoof records don't precipitate trends; they just seem to follow them, and always a few months after interest in that now-sound has all but dried up.

Jim: Interest in post-rock/Thrill Jockey and electronic/Warp bands is rising? I thought it had all but fizzled out, leaving only pop, metal, and techno bands with de-emphasized guitars and no singers. Your complaints about Sonic Youth may be correct, however they are also applicable to Radiohead. The well is drying, the sound is going back underground, Radiohead is cashing in on outdated fashions.

Gil: I never cared one way or the other about Radiohead. Haven't heard Kid A. Don't intend to.

John: Oh Jim, if that Radiohead album was released by an indie band you'd probably love it.

Pete: No one seems to have a particular style that Radiohead is "hopping" except post-rock (and who really knows what that means). I don't think that this album is really so based on influences, unless using electronic sounds automatically makes you a thief of every other electronically based band. I think that they put a pretty original slant on the music. It is still definitely a Radiohead album; it just uses some new techniques/instruments. Maybe it isn't "cool" or "avant garde" or "indie" to think so, which is probably where at least part of the criticism is coming from. Then again, maybe I'm just too uncool to know the bands they're apparently stealing from.

Dave: Original? Radiohead, by rebelling against themselves, found themselves devoid of ideas, so they copped some from some folks they hoped their record buying fans had never heard. Sadly, they are probably right. It would have been better if they had just recorded a covers album.

The worst thing about Kid A is its dishonesty. Radiohead have decided they don't like themselves any more because they are too popular? I wonder if Radiohead say things like "We were into us before anyone was, even before 'Creep.'"

Dick: I love Radiohead, everyone knows that, but I don't think that Kid A is a post-rock or electronica knock off... though I guess that would come fairly close to describing it for a VERY general idea behind the music.

But, comments have been made that they are doing what so many others in the underground have done better. Please tell me who these underground bands are. I love what Radiohead did on the last two albums, which fall under the criticisms mentioned today, and would love to hear more bands who do this sort of thing better.

Daron: Though I am not the biggest Radiohead fan, I have to agree with Dick 100%. Really Kid A is a regular Radiohead album. If you have heard the Bends, you see the difference between that and their first album. OK Computer is a further progression, and Kid A is in the same exact line. Really it isn't that big of a surprise.

Jim Steed eliminates Radiohead Kid A.

Gil Gershman's Elimination

I've been recommending Sigur Rós to friends with questionable taste all year, and every one of them has loved Ágætis Byrjun. 'Nuf said, I think.

Jim: This was the other album I wanted to remove. I have not listened to it since I reviewed it; there are parts I enjoyed, but so much of it is hyper-stylized, bloated, and full of saccharine. John called it "ear candy." I think anything that is "ear candy" shouldn't be on the list.

John: Who doesn't like candy (besides diabetics)? Additionally, they found that saccharine does not cause cancer, I think. "Sven-G-Englar" (the first track) is one of the best songs I have ever had sex to.

Ned: Plus, it's on Spin's 20 best list. Who needs it?

Gil: For the record, Tab moves me plenty. Maybe in more ways than I should relate in a public forum, and some soft drinks taste so much better flat. Alas, Tab just ain't one of 'em.

John: We are just fighting about what our opinions are. This is stupid. What are we actually posting on the site? All of this dialogue (God, I hope not)?

Gil Gershman eliminates Sigur Rós Ágætis Byrjun.

Wade Chamberlain's Elimination

Gil: Sigh. The wages of being honest. No hard feelings, really, but I wonder if I'd have fared any better at Survivor: The fakejazz Edition.

Wade Chamberlain eliminates Burkhard Stangl / Christof Kurzmann Schnee.

John Fail's Elimination

Daron: Obviously I will say it's a different one that you listened to.

Jim: I don't know if you're joking or not. Ned, we need to know which of John's eliminations you are counting.

John: My elimination is for the Analogue, since I have not actually heard the Sonna EP (the one Daron lent me was another one, apparently).

Dave: I think he may have been trying to trick you into not cutting Sonna.

Daron: Yes, I was joking. John's choice is Sonna - The Eventual Bow.

John: No, my choice is Analogue. I've listened to the Analogue a few times, while I only listened to the Sonna EP once or twice, sorta half paying attention to it. and I would never eliminate something that I never heard.

Jim: I would be interested to hear your opinions as to why you are taking it off, then, as you didn't provide any originally. I am assuming that you will give the same reasons as you gave for Sonna.

John: A decent album by a decent instrumental rock band, but certainly not "Top Album of the Year" quality. The record is a bit boring, and it just seems to tie together math-rock elements with more ambient stuff. Plus, the liner notes, while I realize are meant to be humorous, are obnoxious. Calling Analogue's bassist "the Charlie Haden of his generation" is just wrong. The record is certainly tolerable, but it reminds me a lot of my old band, The killing's Gotta Stop Ese, especially with the overused moog.

John Fail eliminates Analogue Rock Proper.

Aaron Snow's Elimination

Ned: OK. Nobody likes Modest Mouse but Wade and me. I can't veto THREE requests to take it off, I guess. That would be too mean, and obviously I must be wrong about it being good and stuff.

Aaron Snow eliminates Modest Mouse The Moon and Antarctica.